I posted the link to it on my Facebook page, with the comment, "Some edifying reading for a few associates of mine. You know who you are. A little MSM concoction no doubt," and of course, someone just had to respond:
Fred:
I doubt you had me in mind, but since I happened upon your post . . .
Main point, from article: " . . . it's true that the 2007 document issued by the state of Hawaii, called a Certification of Live Birth, isn't a copy of the original 1961 document. Obama could ask for that from Hawaii but hasn't, without explanation. The longer, original form would show more details, including the name of the doctor, according to copies of other 1961 birth certificates.
JUST RELEASE THE FRICKIN" DOCUMENT!
There will always be justifiable questions until this is done. Why not release it?
Second point: MSM once again going to bat for Obama & ridiculing dissenters (labeling them "birthers") Where was all of this media "fact-checking" when McCain was falsely accused of adultery, Palin supposedly adopting her own grandchild as her own child, infamous Dan Rather faked memos about Bush & Air National Guard, not mentioning the multitude of inaccuracies & falsehoods with "Global Climate Change"!?
30 July at 18:34 · Delete
Finn:
Some good points. Let me twist your words a little:
1) Because mainstream media (MSM) can be biased on some issues, and with some people, determining the truth of what they are reporting in a specific instance should be ignored.
2) Because McCain (born in Panama without much interrogation on that matter) was the recipient of lies, Obama is due for like treatment.
3) Despite the claims of the Republican governor, two Honolulu papers at the time of his birth, the Hawaii State Health Department in 1961 supplying the info to the papers, the current director of the Hawaii Dept of Health affirming, plus several Republicans agreeing he is legit... you, RICK, believe otherwise?
Is that what you are saying Rick? That you don't believe that our current president was born in the U.S.? Do you have the courage of your convictions (or imagination) to say that plainly?
Say it. "I do not believe the president is a citizen". Bet ya can't, sans verbal sophistry.
Fred:
As you said, you twisted my words. I'm simply pointing out the media bias, yet again. Of course I would prefer the consistent media position to be fairness and honesty for all, not falsehoods for all.
Someone who wonders why Mr. Obama will not release his Certification of Live Birth (if others can see it, why not everyone?) is not the same as someone who publicly cries out "He is not a citizen!".
Why won't Obama release it and silence all doubt? Isn't that a legitimate question? Do you have the answer?
30 July at 20:31 · Delete
Finn:
I think your answer is revealing enough. Unwilling to commit to your own pot stirring. That should be enlightening for those willing to be enlightened.
I hardly expected you to answer my really simple question about what you personally believe on the matter. You dance well... for a teacher.
Fred:
C'mon, Finn,- who's dancing? You've not even attempted to answer the simple question regarding the live birth certificate.
Surely you can see where not releasing it raises questions & doubts, so once again- what possible, rational reason for NOT releasing it could there be, especially when all doubt would be removed and then the "birthers" could rightly be denounced and discredited?
31 July at 03:57 · Delete
Finn:
Ah, it must be cloudy back East, so I will repeat.
Not releasing raises no questions and doubts unless you don't believe the official copy in use (that the government accepts for every purpose), that you believe Obama is a liar, that you believe the head of Hawaii's Health Dept is a liar, that you believe the Republican governor is a liar, that you believe the newspapers that printed the birth records were highly prescient liars.
In light of all of that evidence, and the American system of innocent until proven guilty, (a guilt that would make the entire government unified in deceit) you have, again, my answer to your question.
So, be bold and just indulge me my curiosity and tell me EXACTLY how you would answer my question. Do you, Rick, feel he is a citizen? Or must we assume your sophistry in not answering is wisdom, not wanting to go on the record either way?
Fred:
I think he is a citizen, Tim. Happy?
But why not totally discredit the "birthers" by releasing the live birth certificate? Where is the wisdom in not doing so? You still haven't given a rational reason to hide the live birth certificate or only let a select few view it when releasing it would erase any doubts at all. Will you now indulge me and be bold and attempt to explain why not just release the document?
So much for "complete transparency", and I'm surprised that you cannot, objectively, see where continuing to hide the live birth certificate would fuel conspiracy theories.
31 July at 05:40 · Delete
Finn:
It's not a matter of being happy or not. It's about truth, and how much time smart people spend debating obvious truths, or knowingly winking at falsehoods.
So why not discredit the "birthers"? I probably would have said, "Fine, here's the long form" ages ago. I also lack discipline.
Complete transparency, which Obama lacks in a few areas, ought not to be begin with indulging a motley crew of conspiracy theorists, in the same way people don't try to re-prove the Holocaust to debunkers. Why? They will ignore the existing facts because... they dislike you.
And in the topsy method they use, you are forced to waste time disproving their accusation,when in reality the burden of proof should be on them.
I highly doubt Obama would want to be the first and last president to dignify stupidity with 100% attention in the middle of two wars, the greatest financial crisis since the depression, and a healthcare overhaul.
I think he's already dignified stupidity in more ways than one, but look no further than his "beer summit" held yesterday . . .
At any rate, I do appreciate you at least addressing my question. I don't buy your reply, however. Just end the "debate" once & for all and release the form to the public. Simple, easy, can be done by his handlers, not himself.
But you did lead me to think of an even grander, much more plausible conspiracy . . .
31 July at 12:02 · Delete
Even the left has acknowledged (James Carville amongst many others) that Rahm Emanuel coordinated "mainstream" media & White House attacks on Rush Limbaugh & pressed members of the GOP to denounce him . . . It's very likely that it's a strategy to further split conservatives from the GOP by NOT releasing the easily-released document and thereby fueling more momentum into the "birther" movement. Pressure the GOP to denounce these people at the peril of losing even more votes. That would be a Machiavellian reasoning for keeping the birth certificate "debate" alive . . .
Think about it- you yourself pressured me into making a yes or no statement regarding the issue, even though my own opinion is really as stated- why won't the dude just release his live birth certificate? But if I were a politician there would be a political cost to denouncing a movement that some of my supporters may believe in . . .
31 July at 12:05 · Delete
Too bad conservatives didn't have the balls (or have the "mainstream" media at their disposal to their dirty work for them) to pressure the democrats to denounce their left-wing base back when they were only on the fringe (late 1990's early 2000's) rather than now, when the far-left is now running the country, God help us . . .
31 July at 12:06 · Delete
Finn:
The beer summit was probably the "mission accomplished" of stupidities, but it hurt nobody, and was an attempt to correct a wrong (speaking too quickly without the facts) on the President's part.
But to get back on point without commenting on broader MSM biases (of which they have many, and against conservatives), this issue in particular demands that people be truthful. Not snicker, hide and mock, knowing the truth, while engaging in tit for tat.
The proper Republican response should have been "Forget that nonsense; here is our plan to stabilize the credit markets" or "Here is our plan to fix healthcare". That beats setting straw men on fire.
As for God, he will help those who keep his word, and we would know them by their love. (But let's not go down that road or we would all have a lot of explaining to do in terms of our own attitudes and ways of expression).
31 July at 17:19 · Delete
***
Pretty much every discussion takes this path. One of us points to the specifics of truth, while the other points to the broader issue of media bias. Both are relevant, but you don't solve media bias by engaging in lies either, or ignoring factual points on any given issue.
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